In the past few months while browsing the web for dating tips I discovered the pick up artist and seduction community. I'm sure most of you guys have heard of this. I think it might be helpful to watch someone who's really good with women and have them teach you their skills in person and tag along with you to bars or clubs and critique you as you approach women. The major downside to these bootcamps are the prices, ranging from $1,000 to $5,000.

Have any of you attended one of these bootcamps, or contemplated doing so? I've been thinking about seriously doing this over the summer. But I'd hate to burn a few grand if I don't get much out of it.

I'll save you the trouble: it's bullshit. I wouldn't spend a penny on PUA nonsense. If you're really still interested you can watch youtube videos for free. Most PUA stuff is gimmicky at best.

The thing about a boot camp is this. Ha, you know what I'm going to say. I wish I could say that this is a really great idea and it works and you come out the other end nice and shiny, but alas. Yes over the years since the early 1990's I've looked into bootcamps and courses and have spend a couple of grand and then some on such.

And yes. I won't say that you'll get absolutely nothing out of it. If you've got money to burn, a lot of them are probably good fun. The people that run them are whacky, and some are even good comedians and you can get some feelgood out of them and when it's over there is the news letter, and you can tell your mates how good it was and you all lived in tents in the rocky mountains or studied at some posh hotel and how classy it all felt.

But as far as comming away and being able to put their half baked theorums which sound great while they telling it, into practice, and your in the middle of an ordinary everydayness, and MR Funguy is nowhere ins ight, and you're on your own, there is something that you cannot make your body and mind do. You can't remember bootcamp and the mottos or whatever and majicaly light up like a beacon, go into the place, see the girl and "Hi Doll, I'm Jim Steel..."

It's not like doing a course in photography and comming away from it and actualy be able to take better pictures. I wish it was but it is not my experience and it is not the experience for a lot of people. I'm not saying these bootcamps don't work for some people. You may be one of the lucky ones. But it's a gamble and according to the statistics you've got as much chance of it working for you as you have winning the jack pot.

I think if something like that were to be useful it would need to be a class that you attended once or twice a week for several years. The problem we face is on a political scale. It's not us who are at fault. We're not "broken". We're not missing a screw here and there, and we just need a new card installed to fix it. The problem is largely outside of us as individuals. Like you need air to breath. Without an atmosphere, no amount of bootcamp will teach you how to live without air.

I'm not saying there is nothing we can do. We are in a simular possition as John Brown of the free slavery movement of the 19th century. Traditionaly, people like us were written off as village idiots and ignored. It probably wasn't too painfull back then because villages were small and your senses wern't being assaulted by pussy everytime you walked out of your hut. There was just you and your pitchfaulk and a jug of mead. Life was short. So that by the time you were my age, you were in the ground. Alternatively, if you were very broken hearted the army was there. In Britain you went to sea. In the US you joined the cavalry. People died, life moved a lot faster. You wern't seen as a looser back then because you couldn't get a woman, there was just too much day to day struggle for survival to get depressed. Personaly I would rather have been born in those days than now. We are not rendered "idle" by choice but by circumstance.

By idle I don't mean sitting and twiddling your thumbs. I mean, that you're forced into your cubyhole in the vast terrain of suburbia and shopping malls. No one wants to understand anyone so we defend ourselves with labels. Whatever the solution, it will be radical and previously unthought of.

There is no mental technique to get into the "frame of mind". Not like playing tennis or some sport where the rules are explicit and refereed and everyone knows what they've got to do to win the game. In this dating world there is just you and your missfortune, your vulnerabilities and pleanty of opportunity for some very nasty and humiliating experiences which will make you wish you were with General Custer.

Tolstoy didn't write War and Peace on a wim. It's purpose was to explain why people go to war. If you read the peacetime narrative, there is a lot more agro and dispair than in the wartime section. And once the war is over the old stresses of domesticity return. We as a species cannot survive without the ethos of war. War is not a bad thing, it's just messy. It's use is it grounds one in reality. It gave people something to get a handle on. In a charge, you get to experience your whole body self.

When the troops go to war the women realise how hard life is without men around, so used to appreciate them a lot more. Now we are two a penny. The Earth is overpopulated. We're fast running out of resources. We're close to tipping point. So, yes I don't think the present state of affairs are permanent by any means. I'm afraid it's down to the women to change. Over the last 40 years men have done a lot of accomodating for womens needs. Women have not reciprocated.

We can only really follow the leadership of the suffregettes and march as they marched and demand as they demanded. We need mens rights groups. Our needs are different to womens needs. There needs to be give and take on both sides. Right now we're doing all the giving. We've got to demand that women take their obligations seriously just as they make constant demands of us even as total strangers. Common coutesy that is always defered to women in public needs also to be defered to men in public, rather than treating us like a laughing stock. Women have got to take men as seriously as we take them.

How we get the message out I don't know. We need members to keep posting their experiences and their ideas and to keep asking questions.

For me I think a bootcamp would help because I feel as though if I see men approaching women and getting results, and if I am able to do the same with a PUA's guidance, then that would totally stick with me and change my attitude and perception. Of course any new ability takes practice, so going to one bootcamp wouldn't be worth the money if I didn't actually practice what I learned on a regular basis. I think maybe that is the reason why many men who attend bootcamps ultimately fail, is because they don't practice what they learned during the bootcamps.

I like the idea of attending a once a week class. If my college offered a class like that I'd definitely enroll in a heartbeat!



I'm not sure what to make of all this. I don't agree that the human species can't survive without war. I really think the main goal of humanity should be to strive to achieve a higher consciousness. One day materialism and wealth will be irrelevant because we'll have robots and automated systems working all of our jobs, and all the basic necessities will be provided free of charge. Think of it as a giant utopian welfare state, minus the state. Who needs a government when a computer can do things for more efficiently? In this possible future reality, women will no longer be seeking men of wealth or high status, because all men will essentially be on an equal footing in that regard. So then, will love be the main factor in future relationships?

any girl that responds only to cheap gimmicks isn't worth it anyway.

Isn't makeup, stuffed bras, and a sexy outfit a "gimmick"? It works for women pretty well.
If a man uses a few gimmicks to help meet women, then what is wrong with that?

Cause it's a GIMMICK dumb ass. If a girl falls for cheap tricks from the start, you gotta keep that shit up once you get her to fall in your lap at all. This Isn't rocket science. Or at least, it shouldn't be. A stuffed bra is a TANGIBLE gimmick. When it comes to guys, find a gimmick (or set of gimmicks) that is/are TANGIBLE and PERMANENT. YOU CAN'T!!!

physical detail is a mere consequence of our condition. personality is a part of our condition itself.

and then you have the nature of the gimmicks. enhanced physical appearance is one thing. gimmicks that work through expressing personality say more about those who respond to them, who would not respond otherwise. it says that they define personality materialistically and externally. they live in the present and the physical, and have no concept of reality past what is put in front of their nose. they are as you see them, they are inside out, wearing the essence of their being on their sleeve: they are empty inside, lacking further depth or complexity to that which is externally apparent.

Gimmicks are just tricks to help start an interaction and make it interesting, the rest of the interaction is entirely up to you. Women can play dress up as a gimmick, but if they have a shitty personality, then they won't be liked. Think of gimmicks as the appetizer before the meal. They're the spicy fun food to start off with before you get to the real meat, i.e. the main point of the conversation, where you convey your personality. You can make your own gimmicks or openers/routines as they're called in the PUA community.

Men fall for womens' "cheap tricks" all the time. The red lipstick, the red dress, the high heels, the flirtatious looks, etc.
I don't see what the big deal is. If using a gimmick helps to start or sustain an interaction with a woman, then why not?
I take it that most of the men on here could use the practice, myself included. Why not use something that helps?

This is the problem. They're TRICKS. Nothing more than TRICKS. Just like there are no free handouts in life, THERE ARE NO SHORTCUTS IN LIFE EITHER!!! The game is stacked in favor of women. Don't compare apples to oranges. You're wasting your time and most importantly, you're wasting MINE!!!

I think you're over-analyzing this a bit, you're putting way too much thought into this. The PUA gimmicks, from my understanding, are not designed to replace your personality, they merely provide a helpful way to start or sustain interactions with women. They aren't the "meat" of the interaction, that is where your personality comes in. Gimmicks may be funny openers, little games or routines to help make an interaction more fun, that is all they are.

Yes, they're just simple tricks...and...what's your point? They aren't a "free handout", you still have to make the effort to approach a woman and you have to convey your personality and try to get her phone #. The tricks just add a little pizazz to the interaction. And once again, you still haven't given a good reason for why these tricks shouldn't be used. If they help men interact with women, then why is that such a bad thing?

My point is, you're full of shit.

PUA doesn't work for guys who are 6s or below on the "scale of attractiveness". And they don't work for people who are natural schizoids either.

So a girl sees 2 guys. Identical, but one is wearing a fluffy hat. If she's a girl drawn to superficiality and attracted by shows of insecurity, attention seeking, and other PUA characterstics, she goes to the guy with the hat. If she's a girl that is disgusted by such displays, as I am, and sees the other guy as less fake, more secure with his own identity, she goes to the one without the hat.

I appreciate that PUA routines etc may be an entertaining and mutual joke, but something is seriously wrong when it means the difference between rejection and affirmation. it means that the girl deems you worthy of her for deliberately affecting methods to manipulate her instincts. you don't see anything wrong there?