Does God Exist?

hardliner · **Posted:** 29 Apr 2012, 18:21

The Doctor wrote:

Pavel_Tomarov wrote:

God our LORD does exist.

There are much evidence to support the faith,especially the Jewish people and Israel and historical evidence.For example,the Assyrian troops were killed by a sudden plague when they sieged Jerusalem.

Oh please. That is NOT evidence. It is mere coincidence. That kind of circumstantial evidence is NEVER allowed in a court of law to prove anything. Do not use it to 'prove' your beliefs.

^Here's an example of what I was saying in another thread about how all "evidence" and "proof" is subjective, in the sense that there will never be a consensus; you could have the greatest smoking gun imaginable, but especially when it comes to religion, it won't be "proof" to everyone's satisfaction.

That's kind of how it is with theology...each person gets to decide for themselves what is proof and what isn't, as far as they are concerned. Of course, the absolute truth of things is what it is, and what people believe or don't believe doesn't affect what is actually true, but as far as how one conducts oneself, etc. they get to call it how they see it.

But what's this about using a court of law as a yardstick for truth?
Ever heard the famous phrase from Oliver Twist... "The law is an ass"...?
Courts of law are some of the most fallible decision-making institutions there are.
As a matter of fact, they are set up under the premise that human judgment is fallible.
They only reason they exist is because something has to be charged with wielding the sword of justice, when a situation arises that necessitates it...

But is religion on trial now?
Why do younger generations seem so impatient to have the question of God settled among themselves once and for all?

In a way these conversations seem ridiculous, but in another way, they are good because they get people thinking and contemplating these matters.

Salome · **Posted:** 29 Apr 2012, 18:34

Don't know and don't care.

The Doctor · **Posted:** 30 Apr 2012, 01:43

hardliner wrote:

The Doctor wrote:

Pavel_Tomarov wrote:

God our LORD does exist.

There are much evidence to support the faith,especially the Jewish people and Israel and historical evidence.For example,the Assyrian troops were killed by a sudden plague when they sieged Jerusalem.

Oh please. That is NOT evidence. It is mere coincidence. That kind of circumstantial evidence is NEVER allowed in a court of law to prove anything. Do not use it to 'prove' your beliefs.

^Here's an example of what I was saying in another thread about how all "evidence" and "proof" is subjective, in the sense that there will never be a consensus; you could have the greatest smoking gun imaginable, but especially when it comes to religion, it won't be "proof" to everyone's satisfaction.

Agreed, but he's arguing his faith to others and is providing flimsy evidence. My 'proof' is that I am conscious and self aware, but I would never argue that it is hard evidence.

Quote:

But what's this about using a court of law as a yardstick for truth?
Ever heard the famous phrase from Oliver Twist... "The law is an ass"...?

I wasn't using the law as a 'yardstick', more like...a piece of string with knots tied at certain intervals. Sure, it can, and often does, make mistakes, but, generally speaking, to get a conviction, you need hard evidence, not coincidences. I was merely using a real world example of where and how evidence is taken seriously.

shadowshelf · **Posted:** 12 May 2012, 17:34

this whole thread is crazy... atheists have nothing to prove: if someone makes a claim with no evidence to back it up (ie the existence of god), the burden of proof lies on them. unless god reveals himself, there is no argument.

hardliner · **Posted:** 12 May 2012, 22:56

shadowshelf wrote:

this whole thread is crazy... atheists have nothing to prove: if someone makes a claim with no evidence to back it up (ie the existence of god), the burden of proof lies on them. unless god reveals himself, there is no argument.

Only agnostics have nothing to prove. If an atheist asserts the nonexistence of God, then the burden of proof for that is every bit as much on them, if there even is a burden of proof. That's the next question: does anyone have to "prove" anything to anyone? It's not like any of this will ever be proven to everyone's satisfaction, especially given the level of animosity we are dealing with here...yes, that does affect objectivity.

What should happen is that we should all be able to live in peace, believing whatever we will, and not having to account to anyone else for what we believe. However, in this day and age, it's actually the atheists who are making calls of, "This town ain't big enough for the both of us!" The atheists are the ones going on the offense, trying to push their views off on others. Maybe they think that at this period in history, if they can only get enough momentum and power, they can rid the world of religion once and for all and end the issue. As long as they win in the end, it doesn't matter if it was fair, right?

gmartinfan · **Posted:** 13 May 2012, 02:00

even Darwin said that the chance of natural selection developing the organ such as the "eye" would be like dropping twenty apples from a roof and having them land in four rows of five neatly. A chance, sure....

I really don't know what else to say, everyone keeps saying how the world is "going down the toilet" but you mention values, or faith, or prayer, or God and suddenly you are attacked for "old fashioned rubbish"..............but in the USA, when the state became "god" sometime in the 1930's (and has increased in its stature, and influence over the decades) things DID change here in many ways for the worse.

We live overall in an amoral culture. People don't acknowledge evil in the world today (and it DOES exist, and there are evil people). When you look only at morals as "choices" and spin them on good only.....we've become consumers, materialistic, angry, blobs of flesh...without a purpose.

I don't need prooof for Christ, or God. I have it in me. I owe all of my sobriety to it. That is my proof. I gave a terrible addiction to a higher power, and it was answered with sobriety. Something to believe in. I see the beauty of the world and acknowledge the diverse creation we do happen to inhabit. My addiction was caused by a broken spirit. An anger that money, more drugs, over-indulgence in material things could never satiate or answer.

shadowshelf · **Posted:** 13 May 2012, 02:08

hardliner wrote:

If an atheist asserts the nonexistence of God,

How do you assert the nonexistence of something? Do you have to assert the nonexistence of Santa Claus, or the Easter Bunny, or Gobbledegooklik, the Gobbley Gook Gobble of Gook Gobble Likdom? No, because there's never been any indication that any of those things exist. I could make up any sort of fantasy being I wanted to and say, "Well, prove that he DOESN'T exist!" And you wouldn't be able to. But from a scientific perspective, you wouldn't be expected to either. By default, something does NOT exist unless it can be proven otherwise.

hardliner · **Posted:** 13 May 2012, 04:12

shadowshelf wrote:

hardliner wrote:

If an atheist asserts the nonexistence of God,

How do you assert the nonexistence of something? Do you have to assert the nonexistence of Santa Claus, or the Easter Bunny, or Gobbledegooklik, the Gobbley Gook Gobble of Gook Gobble Likdom? No, because there's never been any indication that any of those things exist. I could make up any sort of fantasy being I wanted to and say, "Well, prove that he DOESN'T exist!" And you wouldn't be able to. But from a scientific perspective, you wouldn't be expected to either. By default, something does NOT exist unless it can be proven otherwise.

Says who?
You?

:lol:

Hey, I guess that ozone layer only came into existence upon its discovery...
So perhaps all the climatology data regarding the hole in the ozone layer needs to be recalculated for the pre-1913 era when the ozone layer itself did not exist...and what the effect has been since acquiring one, save the spot where the hole is.

See what I mean?
Just because something cannot be proven to exist, to the satisfaction of all vehement skeptics, does not mean that it does not exist.

Hey, perhaps I'm not satisfied that your postings on this board are proof that you exist; perhaps you are merely a AI bot in a mainframe somewhere; so by default, do you not exist? Remember, any evidence you point to supporting your own existence is not proof at all, so long as I am not satisfied with it.

So to say that "by default", something does not exist until it can be proven otherwise — to who's satisfaction, we don't know — is only your own personal arbitrary rule. There are no "default conclusions" in genuine science. Of course, you can live by that idea anyway all you want, and I can reject it all I want, and on we go to a peaceful coexistence...if you're up for that. Or, are you planning on fighting with people who don't agree with you over theology for the rest of your life?

And before you go bitching about how religion is supposedly pushed up in your face everywhere you go, remember that this thread is in general chat, you didn't have to click on it, and we could both bet money that there are far more atheistic trolling and confronting posts on this board than religious posts of the same nature.

Habakkuk · **Posted:** 13 May 2012, 07:27

hardliner wrote:

shadowshelf wrote:

this whole thread is crazy... atheists have nothing to prove: if someone makes a claim with no evidence to back it up (ie the existence of god), the burden of proof lies on them. unless god reveals himself, there is no argument.

Only agnostics have nothing to prove. If an atheist asserts the nonexistence of God, then the burden of proof for that is every bit as much on them, if there even is a burden of proof. That's the next question: does anyone have to "prove" anything to anyone? It's not like any of this will ever be proven to everyone's satisfaction, especially given the level of animosity we are dealing with here...yes, that does affect objectivity.

What should happen is that we should all be able to live in peace, believing whatever we will, and not having to account to anyone else for what we believe. However, in this day and age, it's actually the atheists who are making calls of, "This town ain't big enough for the both of us!" The atheists are the ones going on the offense, trying to push their views off on others. Maybe they think that at this period in history, if they can only get enough momentum and power, they can rid the world of religion once and for all and end the issue. As long as they win in the end, it doesn't matter if it was fair, right?

That's one of the weakest aspects of Atheism.Atheism is vulnerable because it has no evidence to support it.While we have to deal with agnosticism using its bad social aspects,Atheism is vulnerable logically.

Onkel Willie · **Posted:** 13 May 2012, 13:21

Pavel_Tomarov wrote:

hardliner wrote:

shadowshelf wrote:

this whole thread is crazy... atheists have nothing to prove: if someone makes a claim with no evidence to back it up (ie the existence of god), the burden of proof lies on them. unless god reveals himself, there is no argument.

Only agnostics have nothing to prove. If an atheist asserts the nonexistence of God, then the burden of proof for that is every bit as much on them, if there even is a burden of proof. That's the next question: does anyone have to "prove" anything to anyone? It's not like any of this will ever be proven to everyone's satisfaction, especially given the level of animosity we are dealing with here...yes, that does affect objectivity.

What should happen is that we should all be able to live in peace, believing whatever we will, and not having to account to anyone else for what we believe. However, in this day and age, it's actually the atheists who are making calls of, "This town ain't big enough for the both of us!" The atheists are the ones going on the offense, trying to push their views off on others. Maybe they think that at this period in history, if they can only get enough momentum and power, they can rid the world of religion once and for all and end the issue. As long as they win in the end, it doesn't matter if it was fair, right?

That's one of the weakest aspects of Atheism.Atheism is vulnerable because it has no evidence to support it.While we have to deal with agnosticism using its bad social aspects,Atheism is vulnerable logically.

I'd say religion is much more vulnerable logically, not to mention that it doesn't have any evidence either. All the evidence you've come up with so far is mostly biblical, which isn't exactly proof of anything.

And to hardliner, I'd say it's the opposite. Pavel is the one who came onto this board proclaiming that atheism is the source of evil, immorality and stupidity. So who started this? It sure as hell wasn't me.

Habakkuk · **Posted:** 13 May 2012, 14:51

Onkel Willie wrote:

Pavel_Tomarov wrote:

hardliner wrote:

shadowshelf wrote:

this whole thread is crazy... atheists have nothing to prove: if someone makes a claim with no evidence to back it up (ie the existence of god), the burden of proof lies on them. unless god reveals himself, there is no argument.

Only agnostics have nothing to prove. If an atheist asserts the nonexistence of God, then the burden of proof for that is every bit as much on them, if there even is a burden of proof. That's the next question: does anyone have to "prove" anything to anyone? It's not like any of this will ever be proven to everyone's satisfaction, especially given the level of animosity we are dealing with here...yes, that does affect objectivity.

What should happen is that we should all be able to live in peace, believing whatever we will, and not having to account to anyone else for what we believe. However, in this day and age, it's actually the atheists who are making calls of, "This town ain't big enough for the both of us!" The atheists are the ones going on the offense, trying to push their views off on others. Maybe they think that at this period in history, if they can only get enough momentum and power, they can rid the world of religion once and for all and end the issue. As long as they win in the end, it doesn't matter if it was fair, right?

That's one of the weakest aspects of Atheism.Atheism is vulnerable because it has no evidence to support it.While we have to deal with agnosticism using its bad social aspects,Atheism is vulnerable logically.

I'd say religion is much more vulnerable logically, not to mention that it doesn't have any evidence either. All the evidence you've come up with so far is mostly biblical, which isn't exactly proof of anything.

And to hardliner, I'd say it's the opposite. Pavel is the one who came onto this board proclaiming that atheism is the source of evil, immorality and stupidity. So who started this? It sure as hell wasn't me.

Atheism is weeker. God our LORD say that Jews are the chief of the nations and they actually are.Israel defeated more than 10 countries in the Six-Day War.Jews got 5 Nobel Prizes last year.This is a great evidence for Christianity.

Jer 31:7 wrote:

For thus says the LORD, "Sing aloud with gladness for Jacob, And shout among the chief of the nations; Proclaim, give praise and say, 'O LORD, save Your people, The remnant of Israel.'

Eze 25 wrote:

Ezekiel 25: Judgment on Gentile Nations--Ammon
1 And the word of the LORD came to me saying,
2 "Son of man, set your face toward the sons of Ammon and prophesy against them,
3 and say to the sons of Ammon, 'Hear the word of the Lord GOD! Thus says the Lord GOD, "Because you said, 'Aha!' against My sanctuary when it was profaned, and against the land of Israel when it was made desolate, and against the house of Judah when they went into exile,
4 therefore, behold, I am going to give you to the sons of the east for a possession, and they will set their encampments among you and make their dwellings among you; they will eat your fruit and drink your milk.
5 "I will make Rabbah a pasture for camels and the sons of Ammon a resting place for flocks. Thus you will know that I am the LORD."
6 'For thus says the Lord GOD, "Because you have clapped your hands and stamped your feet and rejoiced with all the scorn of your soul against the land of Israel,
7 therefore, behold, I have stretched out My hand against you and I will give you for spoil to the nations. And I will cut you off from the peoples and make you perish from the lands; I will destroy you. Thus you will know that I am the LORD."
Moab
8 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Because Moab and Seir say, 'Behold, the house of Judah is like all the nations,'
9 therefore, behold, I am going to deprive the flank of Moab of its cities, of its cities which are on its frontiers, the glory of the land, Beth-jeshimoth, Baal-meon and Kiriathaim,
10 and I will give it for a possession along with the sons of Ammon to the sons of the east, so that the sons of Ammon will not be remembered among the nations.
11 "Thus I will execute judgments on Moab, and they will know that I am the LORD."
Edom
12 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Because Edom has acted against the house of Judah by taking vengeance, and has incurred grievous guilt, and avenged themselves upon them,"
13 therefore thus says the Lord GOD, "I will also stretch out My hand against Edom and cut off man and beast from it. And I will lay it waste; from Teman even to Dedan they will fall by the sword.
14 "I will lay My vengeance on Edom by the hand of My people Israel. Therefore, they will act in Edom according to My anger and according to My wrath; thus they will know My vengeance," declares the Lord GOD.
Philistia
15 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Because the Philistines have acted in revenge and have taken vengeance with scorn of soul to destroy with everlasting enmity,"
16 therefore thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will stretch out My hand against the Philistines, even cut off the Cherethites and destroy the remnant of the seacoast.
17 "I will execute great vengeance on them with wrathful rebukes; and they will know that I am the LORD when I lay My vengeance on them."'"

Of course the House of Judah is unlike other nations!

Atheists started the religious war,not us.I joined the war in early March,what had already begun.A group of Atheists said that a Christian female antifeminist could have been better if she were Atheist.

Onkel Willie · **Posted:** 13 May 2012, 15:31

Pavel_Tomarov wrote:

Onkel Willie wrote:

Pavel_Tomarov wrote:

hardliner wrote:

shadowshelf wrote:

this whole thread is crazy... atheists have nothing to prove: if someone makes a claim with no evidence to back it up (ie the existence of god), the burden of proof lies on them. unless god reveals himself, there is no argument.

Only agnostics have nothing to prove. If an atheist asserts the nonexistence of God, then the burden of proof for that is every bit as much on them, if there even is a burden of proof. That's the next question: does anyone have to "prove" anything to anyone? It's not like any of this will ever be proven to everyone's satisfaction, especially given the level of animosity we are dealing with here...yes, that does affect objectivity.

What should happen is that we should all be able to live in peace, believing whatever we will, and not having to account to anyone else for what we believe. However, in this day and age, it's actually the atheists who are making calls of, "This town ain't big enough for the both of us!" The atheists are the ones going on the offense, trying to push their views off on others. Maybe they think that at this period in history, if they can only get enough momentum and power, they can rid the world of religion once and for all and end the issue. As long as they win in the end, it doesn't matter if it was fair, right?

That's one of the weakest aspects of Atheism.Atheism is vulnerable because it has no evidence to support it.While we have to deal with agnosticism using its bad social aspects,Atheism is vulnerable logically.

I'd say religion is much more vulnerable logically, not to mention that it doesn't have any evidence either. All the evidence you've come up with so far is mostly biblical, which isn't exactly proof of anything.

And to hardliner, I'd say it's the opposite. Pavel is the one who came onto this board proclaiming that atheism is the source of evil, immorality and stupidity. So who started this? It sure as hell wasn't me.

Atheism is weeker. God our LORD say that Jews are the chief of the nations and they actually are.Israel defeated more than 10 countries in the Six-Day War.Jews got 5 Nobel Prizes last year.This is a great evidence for Christianity.

How so? I don't see any proof in it. The fact that 'God' said something and it then happens doesn't prove anything. Post hoc ergo propter hoc, Latin for "after this, therefore because of this," is a logical fallacy (of the questionable cause variety) that states, "Since that event followed this one, that event must have been caused by this one." Post hoc is a particularly tempting error because temporal sequence appears to be integral to causality. The fallacy lies in coming to a conclusion based solely on the order of events, rather than taking into account other factors that might rule out the connection.

The fact that the bible states Jews are the chief nation, and that they succeed today doesn't mean there's causation there. The stuff you mention is only evidence that Jews are good at what they do, it doesn't prove Christianity is true.

There are very many Germans who won the nobel prize as well. Is this proof that Nazism is good? I don't think so.

Jer 31:7 wrote:

For thus says the LORD, "Sing aloud with gladness for Jacob, And shout among the chief of the nations; Proclaim, give praise and say, 'O LORD, save Your people, The remnant of Israel.'

Eze 25 wrote:

Ezekiel 25: Judgment on Gentile Nations--Ammon
1 And the word of the LORD came to me saying,
2 "Son of man, set your face toward the sons of Ammon and prophesy against them,
3 and say to the sons of Ammon, 'Hear the word of the Lord GOD! Thus says the Lord GOD, "Because you said, 'Aha!' against My sanctuary when it was profaned, and against the land of Israel when it was made desolate, and against the house of Judah when they went into exile,
4 therefore, behold, I am going to give you to the sons of the east for a possession, and they will set their encampments among you and make their dwellings among you; they will eat your fruit and drink your milk.
5 "I will make Rabbah a pasture for camels and the sons of Ammon a resting place for flocks. Thus you will know that I am the LORD."
6 'For thus says the Lord GOD, "Because you have clapped your hands and stamped your feet and rejoiced with all the scorn of your soul against the land of Israel,
7 therefore, behold, I have stretched out My hand against you and I will give you for spoil to the nations. And I will cut you off from the peoples and make you perish from the lands; I will destroy you. Thus you will know that I am the LORD."
Moab
8 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Because Moab and Seir say, 'Behold, the house of Judah is like all the nations,'
9 therefore, behold, I am going to deprive the flank of Moab of its cities, of its cities which are on its frontiers, the glory of the land, Beth-jeshimoth, Baal-meon and Kiriathaim,
10 and I will give it for a possession along with the sons of Ammon to the sons of the east, so that the sons of Ammon will not be remembered among the nations.
11 "Thus I will execute judgments on Moab, and they will know that I am the LORD."
Edom
12 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Because Edom has acted against the house of Judah by taking vengeance, and has incurred grievous guilt, and avenged themselves upon them,"
13 therefore thus says the Lord GOD, "I will also stretch out My hand against Edom and cut off man and beast from it. And I will lay it waste; from Teman even to Dedan they will fall by the sword.
14 "I will lay My vengeance on Edom by the hand of My people Israel. Therefore, they will act in Edom according to My anger and according to My wrath; thus they will know My vengeance," declares the Lord GOD.
Philistia
15 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Because the Philistines have acted in revenge and have taken vengeance with scorn of soul to destroy with everlasting enmity,"
16 therefore thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will stretch out My hand against the Philistines, even cut off the Cherethites and destroy the remnant of the seacoast.
17 "I will execute great vengeance on them with wrathful rebukes; and they will know that I am the LORD when I lay My vengeance on them."'"

Quote:

Of course the House of Judah is unlike other nations!

Atheists started the religious war,not us.I joined the war in early March,what had already begun.A group of Atheists said that a Christian female antifeminist could have been better if she were Atheist.

Doesn't prove a thing, these are just biblical texts.

The Doctor · **Posted:** 13 May 2012, 16:17

hardliner wrote:

Hey, I guess that ozone layer only came into existence upon its discovery...
So perhaps all the climatology data regarding the hole in the ozone layer needs to be recalculated for the pre-1913 era when the ozone layer itself did not exist...and what the effect has been since acquiring one, save the spot where the hole is.

See what I mean?
Just because something cannot be proven to exist, to the satisfaction of all vehement skeptics, does not mean that it does not exist.

Seriously? That's your argument? This isn't how it works. What the atheists are saying is that they don't believe in something if there is no proof for it, not that it doesn't exist. Although some will go so far as to say that with absolute certainty and they're as bad as Pavel as my next point will explain.

Pavel_Tomarov wrote:

That's one of the weakest aspects of Atheism.Atheism is vulnerable because it has no evidence to support it.While we have to deal with agnosticism using its bad social aspects,Atheism is vulnerable logically.

Atheism has no proof there isn't a God. That's impossible. But it has counter theories, which very nearly are. Those theories are a lot more believable than a book written thousands of years ago because they can be proven. So don't you ever say that Atheism is baseless. That is blindly ignoring EVERYTHING they have to say, turning you into an arrogant, close minded person, just like those people you are putting down.

I can't believe religious people make up some completely retarded arguments like these. It seriously makes us all look bad leaving the Atheists to laugh at our beliefs. I have my own proof, that of my consciousness and self awareness. But that proof will be unacceptable to anyone else simply because they are not me. I'm not going to use circular or fallacious arguments based on a book written thousands of years ago, by many different authors, often years after the events happened, and sometimes not even by the witnesses. Really? Accept your faith. Accept that you believe it because you believe it. NOT because it is 'proven' with hard evidence.

hardliner · **Posted:** 13 May 2012, 19:30

Onkel Willie wrote:

And to hardliner, I'd say it's the opposite. Pavel is the one who came onto this board proclaiming that atheism is the source of evil, immorality and stupidity. So who started this? It sure as hell wasn't me.

Don't even try to sell that bullshit, Willie.

Pavel is ONE GUY, Willie.

Long before he came here, you atheists were spouting shit about religion here and there all the time, and you will long after he's gone, too. Are you seriously going to try to say that in modern times, atheists aren't mainly on the offense when it comes to theology? Do you seriously believe that? And hey, it's not about whether or not you think the offense is justified; the fact is that atheists are presently the leaders of theological disrespect and strife. Nothing Pavel has done on this board matches what you guys collectively have done here, long before he showed up.

You know that you could put him on ignore, right?
But no, you love it every time you see him write "God is Lord", because when he does, that gives you some demented justification for saying your nasty little things against all religious people...people whom you so obviously hate from the bottom of your heart.

You really do have a complex about theology.

hardliner · **Posted:** 13 May 2012, 19:34

The Doctor wrote:

hardliner wrote:

Hey, I guess that ozone layer only came into existence upon its discovery...
So perhaps all the climatology data regarding the hole in the ozone layer needs to be recalculated for the pre-1913 era when the ozone layer itself did not exist...and what the effect has been since acquiring one, save the spot where the hole is.

See what I mean?
Just because something cannot be proven to exist, to the satisfaction of all vehement skeptics, does not mean that it does not exist.

Seriously? That's your argument? This isn't how it works. What the atheists are saying is that they don't believe in something if there is no proof for it, not that it doesn't exist. Although some will go so far as to say that with absolute certainty and they're as bad as Pavel as my next point will explain.

Go back and read again what Shadowself wrote...
He wasn't laying it out as if it's merely a matter of him not believing in it for whatever reason; he's laying it out as if his opinion is the correct one, as if he's some kind of authority who can decide for all what flies and what doesn't.

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