Does God Exist?

The Doctor · **Posted:** 13 May 2012, 19:57

hardliner wrote:

The Doctor wrote:

hardliner wrote:

Hey, I guess that ozone layer only came into existence upon its discovery...
So perhaps all the climatology data regarding the hole in the ozone layer needs to be recalculated for the pre-1913 era when the ozone layer itself did not exist...and what the effect has been since acquiring one, save the spot where the hole is.

See what I mean?
Just because something cannot be proven to exist, to the satisfaction of all vehement skeptics, does not mean that it does not exist.

Seriously? That's your argument? This isn't how it works. What the atheists are saying is that they don't believe in something if there is no proof for it, not that it doesn't exist. Although some will go so far as to say that with absolute certainty and they're as bad as Pavel as my next point will explain.

Go back and read again what Shadowself wrote...
He wasn't laying it out as if it's merely a matter of him not believing in it for whatever reason; he's laying it out as if his opinion is the correct one, as if he's some kind of authority who can decide for all what flies and what doesn't.

And that's different to Pavel's opinion how?

hardliner · **Posted:** 13 May 2012, 22:01

The Doctor wrote:

hardliner wrote:

The Doctor wrote:

hardliner wrote:

Hey, I guess that ozone layer only came into existence upon its discovery...
So perhaps all the climatology data regarding the hole in the ozone layer needs to be recalculated for the pre-1913 era when the ozone layer itself did not exist...and what the effect has been since acquiring one, save the spot where the hole is.

See what I mean?
Just because something cannot be proven to exist, to the satisfaction of all vehement skeptics, does not mean that it does not exist.

Seriously? That's your argument? This isn't how it works. What the atheists are saying is that they don't believe in something if there is no proof for it, not that it doesn't exist. Although some will go so far as to say that with absolute certainty and they're as bad as Pavel as my next point will explain.

Go back and read again what Shadowself wrote...
He wasn't laying it out as if it's merely a matter of him not believing in it for whatever reason; he's laying it out as if his opinion is the correct one, as if he's some kind of authority who can decide for all what flies and what doesn't.

And that's different to Pavel's opinion how?

I didn't say it was different. What you wrote just made it seem like you thought Shadowself wasn't doing that. Shadowself is apparently an atheist, and you said that "atheists" are merely sating what they believe in and why, rather than asserting that their belief is correct...but as we can see, they are (or at least Shadowself is) stating that their beliefs are correct; logically identical to Pavel's assertions or not, that is indeed what they are saying.

Meerkat · **Posted:** 13 May 2012, 23:42

Pavel_Tomarov wrote:

Atheism is weeker. God our LORD say that Jews are the chief of the nations and they actually are.Israel defeated more than 10 countries in the Six-Day War.Jews got 5 Nobel Prizes last year.This is a great evidence for Christianity.

Um... Holocaust?

gmartinfan · **Posted:** 13 May 2012, 23:52

yeah the Holocaust happened in a culture than needed a 'scapegoat' had some other burning issues that were never resolved as Germany achieved 'nationhood' in 1871 and let us remember in Trepow Prison in Polensee in Berlin......a nondescript brick building with cells, and a room with a beam. Hooks on the beam. Used to hang enemies of the German people with piano wire. Filmed for Hitlers, Himmlers, and Goerings "personal" viewing.

This is where the "good Germans" perished under the NAZI regime. No, there were not many, but ALL the ringleaders were:

-Devout German-Catholic priests and their followers from their parish houses
-Devout German-Protestant Ministers and Pastors and their followers from their parish houses
-Devout German Officers and Soldiers of the German Salvation Army from various Corps around Germany

Yes, Colonel Beck and yes, Rommel and others of the German military perished too........it was a secular culture that put worship of the State over God that allowed this. Even in "Mein Kampf" Hitler wanted ALL churches (and some complied) that Mein kampf would "replace" the Bible as divine scripture.

It wasn't the Germans who were "getting along fine" without religion or God. It wasn't the college students (in the early years anyway), it wasn't the Unions, or professors, or journalists. It was men and women of God who died for the German underground to rid their Germany of this menance. These brave Germans were against Hitler from DAY ONE.

Meerkat · **Posted:** 14 May 2012, 00:09

I'm not sure I get your point. My comment was just noting that Pavel's argument about Jews winning Nobel Prizes being evidence of a God was flawed, because it was hideously outweighed by the six million Jews who died horribly under the Nazi regime. Pointing to loads of Christians who also died just aids my argument, yet I thought you were trying to prove the existence of God?

gmartinfan · **Posted:** 14 May 2012, 00:12

Well, perhaps I read the thread wrong. it does happen ;-)

but I thought it was alluding to the holocaust happening in a culturally-Christian culture. It was devout Christians who were the ringleaders in the German underground that were ASHAMED and HORRIFIED about Hitler.

My apologies to you if it was read wrong by me.

Meerkat · **Posted:** 14 May 2012, 00:21

That's ok, but in response to what I now understand you were saying, Adolf Hitler himself was a Christian, as were the vast majority of all non-jewish germans at that time (indeed, likely the majority of the whole continent of Europe). There were "good" and "evil" men on both sides of the war who were all Christian.

Habakkuk · **Posted:** 14 May 2012, 08:17

Meerkat wrote:

That's ok, but in response to what I now understand you were saying, Adolf Hitler himself was a Christian, as were the vast majority of all non-jewish germans at that time (indeed, likely the majority of the whole continent of Europe). There were "good" and "evil" men on both sides of the war who were all Christian.

Hitler was not a Christian.....He had been a Roman Catholic in his childhood but he denounced Christianity when he came to power.Later he said that Christianity is a terrible thing because it is weak and peaceful while Islam and the Japanese religion are quite good things.When Hitler came to power,he persecuted the Church(especially Catholicism) and many priests were incarcerated.

This is a common Atheist lie.Even if Hitler had been a Christian,what does Hitlerism has anything to do with Christianity?Just like someone might say that Robert Mugabe claims to be a Christian and Mugabe is a terrible man,so Christianity is bad.There is a logical fallacy:Hitler breathes and Hitler was evil,so breathing is evil.The same applies to this topic.What's worse is that Hitler was actually not a Christian at all.So this argument is pretty flawed.

Onkel Willie · **Posted:** 14 May 2012, 11:50

hardliner wrote:

Onkel Willie wrote:

And to hardliner, I'd say it's the opposite. Pavel is the one who came onto this board proclaiming that atheism is the source of evil, immorality and stupidity. So who started this? It sure as hell wasn't me.

Don't even try to sell that bullshit, Willie.

Pavel is ONE GUY, Willie.

Long before he came here, you atheists were spouting shit about religion here and there all the time, and you will long after he's gone, too. Are you seriously going to try to say that in modern times, atheists aren't mainly on the offense when it comes to theology? Do you seriously believe that? And hey, it's not about whether or not you think the offense is justified; the fact is that atheists are presently the leaders of theological disrespect and strife. Nothing Pavel has done on this board matches what you guys collectively have done here, long before he showed up.

You know that you could put him on ignore, right?
But no, you love it every time you see him write "God is Lord", because when he does, that gives you some demented justification for saying your nasty little things against all religious people...people whom you so obviously hate from the bottom of your heart.

You really do have a complex about theology.

If you're looking at it as an atheist offensive, don't you think it's rather justified since we were in the defence for the first 2800 years of the Abrahamic religions' existence? Up until the 1789 French Revolution, critical thought wasn't appreciated very much. If you want to call critical thought disrespect then you're doing what religious leaders have been doing for centuries to try and shut us up.

And the reason I respond to Pavel every time is because he blames everything on atheism. "Oh look, I couldn't watch this youtube video because of atheism". It has nothing to do with atheism but with communism, they're not the same. This is no way to argue as it pins the blame on something that isn't the cause.

Once again, I don't hate religious people. Someone who was one of my best friends (we still speak from time to time, so no I didn't banish him for being theist) is a Christian, and quite serious about it. On the other hand, he doesn't go around proclaiming that people like me are the source of the 'Evilocracy'.

Onkel Willie · **Posted:** 14 May 2012, 11:55

Pavel_Tomarov wrote:

Meerkat wrote:

That's ok, but in response to what I now understand you were saying, Adolf Hitler himself was a Christian, as were the vast majority of all non-jewish germans at that time (indeed, likely the majority of the whole continent of Europe). There were "good" and "evil" men on both sides of the war who were all Christian.

Hitler was not a Christian.....He had been a Roman Catholic in his childhood but he denounced Christianity when he came to power.Later he said that Christianity is a terrible thing because it is weak and peaceful while Islam and the Japanese religion are quite good things.When Hitler came to power,he persecuted the Church(especially Catholicism) and many priests were incarcerated.

This is a common Atheist lie.Even if Hitler had been a Christian,what does Hitlerism has anything to do with Christianity?Just like someone might say that Robert Mugabe claims to be a Christian and Mugabe is a terrible man,so Christianity is bad.There is a logical fallacy:Hitler breathes and Hitler was evil,so breathing is evil.The same applies to this topic.What's worse is that Hitler was actually not a Christian at all.So this argument is pretty flawed.

I wrote:

Was Adolf Hitler an Atheist?

Adolf Hitler was baptized in a Catholic Church in 1889 and was never be excommunicated or in any other way officially censured by the Catholic Church. Hitler frequently referred to God and Christianity in his various speeches and writings. In one 1933 speech, he said that "To do justice to God and our own conscience, we have turned once more to the German Volk." In another he said: "We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out."

In a 1922 speech, he said: "My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice. ...And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery. When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and exploited."

Was Nazism an Atheist Ideology?

The NSDAP Party Program stated: “We demand freedom for all religious confessions in the state, insofar as they do not endanger its existence or conflict with the customs and moral sentiments of the Germanic race. The party as such represents the standpoint of a positive Christianity, without owing itself to a particular confession....”

Positive Christianity adhered to basic orthodox doctrines and asserted that Christianity must make a practical, positive difference in people’s lives. It's difficult to maintain that Nazi ideology was atheistic when it explicitly endorsed and promoted Christianity in the party platform.

Communism and traditional socialism were both intensely hated by the Nazi party which argued that, as atheistic and Jewish ideologies, they threatened the future of both German and Christian civilization. In this, most Christians in Germany and elsewhere agreed and this explains much of the Nazis popular support.

Hitler wasn't an atheist either. So this doesn't do much to support your point that atheism is evil. Hitler himself said he identified with Christianity and despised atheism as a threat to German civilization. Of course he had his own little perverted version of Christianity, but he still was no atheist: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_Christianity

oncebitten55 · **Posted:** 14 May 2012, 12:00

Pavel_Tomarov wrote:

Meerkat wrote:

That's ok, but in response to what I now understand you were saying, Adolf Hitler himself was a Christian, as were the vast majority of all non-jewish germans at that time (indeed, likely the majority of the whole continent of Europe). There were "good" and "evil" men on both sides of the war who were all Christian.

Hitler was not a Christian.....He had been a Roman Catholic in his childhood but he denounced Christianity when he came to power.Later he said that Christianity is a terrible thing because it is weak and peaceful while Islam and the Japanese religion are quite good things.When Hitler came to power,he persecuted the Church(especially Catholicism) and many priests were incarcerated.

This is a common Atheist lie.Even if Hitler had been a Christian,what does Hitlerism has anything to do with Christianity?Just like someone might say that Robert Mugabe claims to be a Christian and Mugabe is a terrible man,so Christianity is bad.There is a logical fallacy:Hitler breathes and Hitler was evil,so breathing is evil.The same applies to this topic.What's worse is that Hitler was actually not a Christian at all.So this argument is pretty flawed.

Hitler believed that he was a Christian. Ther is no doubt of that at all, at least
according to his many speeches.

What's. really weird is that he himself may have had Jewish ancestors, and
was helped out early in life by Jewish people.

Of course, he was a raving meglomaniac genocidial madman, so who really
knows for sure if he really did believe in God.

Kurhein · **Joined:** 02 May 2012, 19:35 **Posts:** 21

Quote:

Of course, he was a raving meglomaniac genocidial madman, so who really
knows for sure if he really did believe in God.

Remove "megalomaniac" and "genocidal" and you have yourself every preacher, pastor, priest, shaman and any other holy man professing his/her religion.

Onkel Willie · **Posted:** 14 May 2012, 14:43

Kurhein wrote:

Quote:

Of course, he was a raving meglomaniac genocidial madman, so who really
knows for sure if he really did believe in God.

Remove "megalomaniac" and "genocidal" and you have yourself every preacher, pastor, priest, shaman and any other holy man professing his/her religion.

Now, now, religion has its good points too.

Kurhein · **Joined:** 02 May 2012, 19:35 **Posts:** 21

Onkel Willie wrote:

Kurhein wrote:

Quote:

Of course, he was a raving meglomaniac genocidial madman, so who really
knows for sure if he really did believe in God.

Remove "megalomaniac" and "genocidal" and you have yourself every preacher, pastor, priest, shaman and any other holy man professing his/her religion.

Now, now, religion has its good points too.

Had it's good points. Like a vestigial organ that once had a function within the human body it now only exist as something that risks infection and damaging to the whole.

It is antiquated, bigoted, misogynistic, homophobic, racist, and anti-progressive dogma that when applied to government leads to religious police. You only need to look at say Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan to see how a theocracy functions.

Onkel Willie · **Posted:** 15 May 2012, 15:41

How about Buddhism then? It's always been quite a tolerant religion. And besides that Christianity and Islam have their good points too even if both have developed in the wrong way. Wouldn't you agree that the Ten Commandments are a good thing?

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