Or to reframe.
I had trouble learning speech in my native English.
I never could learn French even though half my family is and I grew up in Quebec and even played on all French hockey teams
I failed horribly at every other language that I tried to pick up.
I still flub a bit when speaking English and it is no secret that my spelling is horrible.

How do I gain self esteem wrt learning languages. Go on. Do I just believe in myself. Really. Wouldn't that be called delusion?
Should I just keep trying. But isn't insanity doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results.

Oh I know. Maybe I should take up knitting, that will make all the difference.

Oh and on that Alpha list. You are playing Running Faggot again.
Obvious advice is obvious. You think anyone here hasen't seen that advice and you think anyone here who can apply the advice [who isn't crippled by shyness] hasn't already tried. If so fuck you troll.

I bet you go around telling smokers that they should try quiting smoking by not smoking.
Or maybe tell them they can try cold turkey, or eciggs or gradual reduction because I am sure there isn't a smoker alive who hasn't ever heard of such methods.


Obvious troll is obvious and isn't trying very hard.

Well duh. You already know that you don't want to be incel. It should be common sense to at least want some desire to stop it.



That non shy incel isn't you, correct? Unless you're contradicting yourself, you just said in this same post that you're an outgoing and funny guy.

1: Missing the point.

2: Some incels are so because they can hardly talk to people. Others because they can hardly talk to women. If they could they may or may not be able to get along with them.
There is nothing in the above that suggests I self identify as either a shy incel or a non shy incel. You are just grasping at straws to be a trolly cunt.
Aside from a minor case of loveshyness that strikes in very particular situations I am one of those non shy incels. How you can read the above and make your claim is beyond me. I was just being specific in whom my comentary applies to.

However I am sure you will find some way to twist this so you can make some other troll comment. Either purposely misread something or just go out on left field and make something up or just say something stupid. Or all three as in this case.

I'll just add... women are not a fraction as clever or mysterious as they think they are. Knowing what women generally do (and I know that's not a given, a lot of bullshit floats around here and in mainstream discourse) - knowing what women do is one thing, but being able to act on that knowledge towards any meaningful objective is another.

Being with a woman shouldn't be a gargantuan stuggle for bullshit reasons - there are already enough real reasons why relationships and their consequences are a pain in the ass.



I don't think those markers that alienate people can be changed - there is a reason why I am where I am today, and sooner or later it will destroy me, no matter how much I try to improve myself.
Others' impressions are not based solely on what they see and what you think is exposed to them. I find it disturbing when trained professionals try to deny this, and lead someone who is already confused and probably terrified into further despair, but that seems to be the order of the day. It's magical thinking, pure and simple.
Sure, I can put on a mask to some extent, but the way I do that is by basically not existing, never speaking what I think, limiting all conversations to the most crude terms possible. To the world around me, my only life is walking to the corner store, picking up smokes/pop/beer and other munchables, and walking back; but I don't doubt that most aren't aware of my past, because people gossip, insult me in ways that make it clear they are sanctioned to attack me by society, and so on. I cannot hope to have any significant conversation with another person face to face, especially if I have to talk about myself. Even insignificant conversations are difficult to maintain for long. They know and I know it's bullshit, that I can be pushed around by others with no reprecussions to them. (Perhaps that is not true, as I can get back in small ways, but I know that others have sanction to basically disregard fear of the law, any sense of ethics, and must view me as a subhuman.)

But yeah - t+e is trolling and you really shouldn't respond to him seriously.



Damn straight brother.

Sorry for taking a while to respond. With me being overseas for a few weeks, it left me behind with catching up on here.

Usually I would try and drop subtle hints and make a connection with the person. I would say there is usually an in between stage of things so you don't just say for example, make small talk with someone and then ask them out just like that. There needs to be some build up of interest, I think and an idea that the other person is somewhat interested, whether it be actively interested or in a "I am open to getting to know this person better" way. I guess it isn't always a clear cut thing and for me personally, I value friendship in either sex anyhow.

For a guy I knew I actively liked more than a friend I would probably hint at meet ups. For example, with one past crush I recall commenting that I had nothing to do tomorrow (a Saturday) and needed to widen my social circle. His reply was "Don't you have friends in the area you could do stuff with?" which was a nice and polite enough reply for a guy not romantically interested living an hour or so away. I was of course, creating a social avenue and if he wanted to hang out/had been keen, he would have replied that he too didn't have anyone to hang out with, either. I would then take the social cue to initiate catching up , maybe but his reply closed me off. For two people who have a certain level of interest in getting to know each other, the interaction would happen more effortlessly. That is just one example anyway.

In a nutshell, if someone is mutually keen, it shouldn't be hard work and they don't close you off.

Renewing a stale topic, these conversation cues you speak of, there are so many things that can bend out of favor due not responding correctly. In your example, saying one needs to widen her social circle suggests exclamatorily that you don't have friends and can be an open invitation to ridicule your self proclaimed undesirable status. That is one thing I am acutely aware of when accidentally using that kind of language. People at work already think I go home and stare at the walls.

One thing I have seen work and try to implement in my own life is using clarifying statements after an ambiguous one.

While this is true in most countries, in some areas (for example France, maybe Sweden and Israel) there is a law in the penal code that basically says: "you are not allowed to create a sense of hostility/fear/discomfort", in France such offences are punished by maximum 3 years in prison combined with 30 000 Euro fine. This would include any area, be it on the street, home or wherever.

It is usually in the eyes and In the way that she touches you.

Yeah, all these attempts to be indirect seem a bit silly. Also, it just looks like an attempt to have the guy do all the risk taking. Even when she's attracted to him, she makes an ambiguous hint that's risk free, and then the guy faces rejection by making his intent more explicitly known. She could then reject him if she wanted and act like she wasn't interested in the first place. Plausible deniability.

First off, I want to state that I consider myself incel even though I am a woman. I think men assume that if you are a woman, you can get sex anytime, anywhere. I was 21 before I went on my first date. I was a virgin until I was 39 and had my first serious relationship. Men have been mean to me for years--my brother molested me and I was teased/bullied in school from seventh grade on.

I never had any of those "wonderful teenage love" experiences. I was thin back then, and I had a huge overbite, but really, in looking back at the yearbook, I wasn't really that much uglier/prettier than a lot of other girls.

I think I was beaten down so much, that I am skittish around men. Even when I try talking to them, they are looking around for someone else. So it's really kind of depressing. If my chances of meeting a guy were better when I was younger and thinner, and they didn't want me then, what chance do I have now, at the age of 48, with the addition of several more pounds? I finally had that plastic surgery that I wanted since I was 12. My profile looks way better now, but even I knew the day of the surgery that it really wouldn't make that much of a difference. People knew I had the surgery, but I had to point it out, and show before and after pictures.

I rarely have men approach me, but even when they do, I never know when they are interested in me or not. I was chatting on Facebook with a friend of mine about a situation I had with an old classmate. The Facebook friend said I was "standoffish." He also said he had made a move on me, but I didn't move back, so he moved on. I didn't ask him for greater detail, but I've only met with him maybe three or four times, and I honestly can't remember him putting the moves on me.

But here's the weird thing I was talking to him about. I had a classmate talk to me at the class reunion about the blog I write. He is completely fascinated with it, and has it on an RSS feed so he knows exactly when I update. Anyway, he really made me feel like I was an okay person. I've bitched on my blog about how men hate me, and how they are mean to me, and no matter what I do, nothing works. At the reunion, as he was walking away from me, he said, "You know Patricia, (not my real name) I have NEVER treated you like shit." He said it in a tone of voice which caught my ear--he sounded as if he wanted to remind me that he was never mean to me, and that I shouldn't forget that, and not to paint men with the same brush. He actually almost sounded hurt/angry.

Well, a couple months ago, I was at a conference near his city. I told him I was coming, and he was looking forward to getting together with me. So we went to dinner at a restaurant overlooking the ocean. The entire time throughout dinner, he was asking me question after question, touching my arm, touching my hair, asking me about myself, and also asked about my bad luck with men. When I mentioned I was on Plentyoffish this past summer, asked me if I was interested in being in a relationship, and what my ideal man would be. I was truthful, but vague. My inexperience and negative experiences with men are a very sore topic with me. We were having a really good time, and I was happy that he asked me about my bad luck with men, but I didn't want to start crying, because I usually do when I talk about it.

I told him it would be nice to step out every so often with a guy for dinner or something, but that school took up a lot of my time. (Which it does.) Then, he asked me what my ideal man would be like. I didn't have the guts to say, "well, he's sitting across the table from me." I said my ideal guy would have to be patient, and I didn't think I'd find anyone like that at my age.

What's troubling about all this is the fact that he is married. He didn't talk about his wife very much. But the dinner was just ... full of some definite chemistry. He'd ask me a question, and he was definitely trying to maintain eye contact with me. I was trying to do my best to look at him, but I was shy and was looking away. Also, he just had this way of asking questions, then kind of leaning back and looking at me...it made me feel like I was the most interesting woman in (his) world. I told him someone on Plentyoffish told me I was a "trainwreck" and he reached over and touched me and said, "Oh Patricia, you're not a trainwreck." I told him in an email earlier this summer that I've had bad luck with men, and instead of getting mad at me (like a lot of men do) or basically said it was something I was doing wrong, he just said he was really sorry and hoped I could get away from the town I live in so I could find someone who could appreciate a spirited woman like me with great hair. I swear, every single guy I've told about my issues with men get really angry with me about it. I told a guy in my class, whom I'd asked out for coffee, about my problems with men. I was NOT interested in this man romantically. I wanted his insight about the class, because he seemed like he hated the class more than I did. Well, the date was a disaster. I told him I'd given up on men and he said "why not just join a convent?" I told him I wasn't religious, but he said I should join anyway. I started to cry. After we were done with our food, we left, and right outside the restaurant he yelled, "did I make you feel like shit? Huh? Did I make you feel like shit?" Then, he forced me to hug him (I tried to pull away) and I cried all the way home. I felt so gross, I took a shower. He then sent me a couple emails after with his phone number, asking me to call him. I wrote a blog post about it, basically saying, "fuck you all." I vowed I would never ask a man out again after that. (I also found out he had a class D felony.)

So getting back to my former classmate: The thing I want to know is why did he pour on the charm? Why did he ask me if I wanted a relationship and what my ideal man was like? Was he asking me because he was genuinely curious, or is he really interested? The reason I ask is because he mentioned briefly that his wife was anorexic. He gives me the impression that he does a lot of stuff by himself--there was very little "we like to camp on weekends" or "we like to go bike riding on the weekends."

I've asked a LOT of people about this. Everyone seems to be stumped, but I have a couple of people who say I should walk away from the situation, a couple people who think he's playing me, and I have one person who thinks he's really interested in me.

The thing is, I'm totally smitten with this guy. We like some of the same things, and he's very kind and understanding and thoughtful. He's known me and remembered me since kindergarten, which was a LONG time ago. I am not sure if he asked me to dinner (he was very respectful in the way he asked me) and lavished all this attention me because he knew I've never had this kind of treatment, even from my first and only boyfriend, or if he genuinely likes me. I didn't flirt back with him, because he IS married. Even though I really enjoyed this attention, it worries me. What does it mean? I'm convinced that if he'd been single, dinner would not have ended with dessert. I think he would have asked me what sights I wanted to see, and we would have checked them out and possibly gone for a drink later on. After that, I don't know.

One last thing. He knows I write erotic fiction, and he's read quite a bit of it. When we left the restaurant, I wanted to get a picture of the two of us. So I got my cameraphone out and snapped a selfie of the two of us. Right after we checked the picture out, he tickled me on the waist. (My erotic fiction features tickling and spanking.)

Maybe this was the wrong place to post this. But I just wanted people to know that women can be incel too, and sometimes we don't catch signals. But this former classmate I had dinner with was putting out some heavy duty signals. I'm not THAT experienced, but even I knew that eye contact, smiling, touching, asking me questions about my childhood and if I wanted a relationship/what my ideal guy is like and especially tickling me at the end of the date certainly was sending a message, as confusing as it was.

So guys, what do you think? Is he into me, fucking with my head, or just trying to make me feel better?

Sorry this is so long. If I have any advice/clues to offer, read on:

If you see a woman at church, or a club meeting, or wherever, tread carefully. Smile at her. Even if it's hard, smile.

If you see her on a regular basis, like church, or a weekly club meeting or whatever, ask her something about the sermon, or what the club has going on that night. Approach her after the service/meeting is over.

If you compliment her, pick out a piece of jewelry, or comment on her hair, or if she has pretty hands. I have a nice rack, but when I get compliments about it, it honestly makes me think that the only thing I have to offer a man is my vagina and breasts. WE know you think about sex 24/7, but we don't like to be reminded of it.

Ask us about ourselves. I really like it when a man seems to want to get to know me. It's very flattering when people ask us about ourselves. That way, you find out more information, maybe some dislikes/likes and that's your cue to file that information away. Then, if her favorite band is playing in town, or maybe an hour or two a way, you can ask her if she's going to that show.

DO NOT say, "I'm looking for a girlfriend." Don't mention this. It's hard, but you need to get to know a woman. For me, I really need to feel comfortable with a guy. And sometimes that takes a while. I seem to attract men through my writing. I don't attract a LOT of men through my writing, but it seems like it's something they are interested in. My first and only boyfriend emailed me through my blog and we chatted for a few weeks, then I didn't hear from him for about six months. Then, he emailed me again for a couple weeks, THEN he asked me out to a movie. He had to go to work after that, but he kissed me three times in the parking lot before we left. I saw his picture on his blogger profile, and so I felt more comfortable because I could see that he had a few extra pounds (so do I) plus, he was my type physically: dark hair, dark eyes. But what was most important, is that when we emailed before we met, he didn't mention sex, or give off any desperate/creepy vibes. He seemed very intelligent and sincere. He also thinks he has Asperger's, and he probably does, but even with my lousy experiences with men, I agreed to meet him in person. But this didn't happen overnight!

Dress properly. If you are overweight, make sure your t-shirts are big enough so that your belly isn't hanging out. Make sure your clothes are clean. Shave. Bathe.

I had an older gentleman come up to me at a festival once and this is what he said. "Do you have a boyfriend? Are you married? Would you like to exchange numbers?" I did not, but I was also NOT interested in this guy. His direct approach was rather refreshing, but it also gave off a whiff of cluelessness/desperation. Try not to look at each woman out there as a potential lover/girlfriend. I know it's probably hard not to think that way, but just as there are alpha males, there are alpha females. Try and get to know women as people, as friends. If you do seem to get friendzoned a bit, ask a female friend if she is willing to help you feel more comfortable around women, or if she can tell you what you think you are doing wrong.

I've tried acting in a lot of ways: the only thing I haven't tried is acting slutty. People say, "just be yourself" but that doesn't seem to work either. I seem to end up with very limited attention from men, but it is from men I am not attracted to for some reason. I feel like intellectually we are not on the same page, or I'm more active than they are.

If you are young, please try and work on this issue. I don't want anyone to end up in my situation. I really don't know what I'm doing wrong. People say it's my low self-esteem, maybe it is. But a long time ago, I decided I would rather be by myself than be on dates with men that I wasn't attracted to. Problem is, there are very few men I find attractive. Maybe I'm too picky. And no, I'm NOT a lesbian. I've been really attracted to two men in the past five and a half years since my boyfriend and I broke up. Both are in their 40s, and both of them expressed interest in my writing and approached me RESPECTFULLY. Yes, they are in shape, and yes, I do find them attractive. But if they had been mean to me, I wouldn't have paid any attention to them. And I've been attracted to older men who were overweight. If I had the key to attraction, I'd be a billionaire, because I'd sell the secret.

I know it can be lonely. But I have at least three female friends who probably haven't had sex in several years, nor do they have boyfriends. They are living their lives. And that's what we ALL have to do, in the end. I have a fantasy of losing weight and getting the best body of my life. I've got the plastic surgery I wanted, more than one person thinks I'm pretty. Even if I lose the weight and I'm still incel, I'll know that isn't the issue, and maybe I'm just destined to be alone. If men hate me, and there's nothing I can do about it, that's that. I have the rest of my life to finish my advanced degree, and then find a full time job, then keep my part time job and work as much as I can to accomplish a few financial goals. And I plan to have fun. If a great guy comes along to share that, it would be a miracle. But I'm not going to hang out with a "meh" guy. I want to really, REALLY be nuts about the guy. I want to click with him spiritually, intellectually, physically and emotionally.

In the meantime, I can be happy that I've never been in a disastrous, abusive marriage, nor did I have any children that I couldn't afford to raise. I have a friend who is financially dependent on her boyfriend, who has cheated on her. He is literally a disgusting pig of a man, both in personality and physically. She can't kick him out, or she'll lose the house. She can't find a good paying job because of her lack of education, and also, if she stays poor, her kids get scholarships. So she's sacrificing for her kids. I will never have to do that. And I am glad.

Like I said, sorry this is long.