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 Post subject: Re: A New Voice...
PostPosted: 22 Feb 2015, 06:29 
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Ember wrote:
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The idealist (ie; fool) in me wants to believe that people are capable of doing the right thing. The realist in me knows most people will choose what they want over what is fair, but doesn't want (can't afford) to admit it. This is the fine line I walk everyday.

And....I have no reasonable response...

Anyhow, thanks for a thought provoking discussion

Thank you, the pleasure was mine. I've learned to respect your ideas. Whenever you pop up in a thread, you never disappoint.

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 Post subject: Re: A New Voice...
PostPosted: 22 Feb 2015, 06:58 
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cerebral_barrier wrote:
The idealist (ie; fool) in me wants to believe that people are capable of doing the right thing. The realist in me knows most people will choose what they want over what is fair, but doesn't want (can't afford) to admit it. This is the fine line I walk everyday.

Most people are incapable of meaningful thought. They must be trained to behave by a strong religion. If this isn't done, they act on instinct. So to answer you, people are capable of doing the right thing if they are trained to do the right thing by religion. Fairness is irrelevant since people are too stupid to understand the concept.

Regarding your other concept, it is contrary to evolution. Your plan would result in the reproduction of the most irresponsible men which would be a disaster.

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 Post subject: Re: A New Voice...
PostPosted: 22 Feb 2015, 20:02 
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fschmidt wrote:
Most people are incapable of meaningful thought. They must be trained to behave by a strong religion. If this isn't done, they act on instinct. So to answer you, people are capable of doing the right thing if they are trained to do the right thing by religion. Fairness is irrelevant since people are too stupid to understand the concept.

Regarding your other concept, it is contrary to evolution. Your plan would result in the reproduction of the most irresponsible men which would be a disaster.

A disaster might not be such a bad thing. The chaos that follows may destroy a lot of modern civilization forcing a new one to created. People fear radical change and as such; they regard it as "bad". There is no such things as good or bad; these are human concepts that do not exist in nature. No one has a right to exist or to snuff out the existence of another being. As humans we assert our wants/needs on the world around us and hold ourselves to standards produced by popular belief.

I think we, as a species, have gone too far and have become lazy. As such; many of our people do not deserve to live, yet they are protected by things like laws and conventional morality. I don't like the idea of suffering and death but the fact remains that we are not likely to progress in any meaningful way until threatened with something big and nasty.

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 Post subject: Re: A New Voice...
PostPosted: 22 Feb 2015, 20:23 
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cerebral_barrier wrote:
A disaster might not be such a bad thing. The chaos that follows may destroy a lot of modern civilization forcing a new one to created.

The type of disaster I am talking about precludes the creation of a new civilization, because it is genetic decay that is almost irreversible. If you haven't read these yet, please read:

https://caamib.wordpress.com/the-story- ... ent-truth/
http://www.biblicjudaism.org/Human-Evolution-tp17.html

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There is no such things as good or bad; these are human concepts that do not exist in nature.

The idea that human concepts are distinct from some truth in nature is called the correspondence theory of truth. This originated with Plato. Pre-Socratic Athenians and the writers of the Old Testament did not hold this view, and neither do I. My view is that there nothing more fundamental than the concepts in my mind, and no concept is more fundamental than good and bad. If you want to understand what I am talking about, you can read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance and/or The Philosophy of Hebrew Scripture.

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I don't like the idea of suffering and death but the fact remains that we are not likely to progress in any meaningful way until threatened with something big and nasty.

Your "we" means broad humanity since you come from a modernist mindset. I do not identify with humanity and I would never use "we" to associate myself with humanity. The most meaningful "we" is tribal, members of my tribe. My approach is to seek a tribe that can progress, and not to worry about humanity in general any more than I worry about cockroaches.

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 Post subject: Re: A New Voice...
PostPosted: 22 Feb 2015, 20:47 
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Viking vs. Jew

interesting


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 Post subject: Re: A New Voice...
PostPosted: 22 Feb 2015, 20:58 
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fschmidt wrote:
The idea that human concepts are distinct from some truth in nature is called the correspondence theory of truth. This originated with Plato. Pre-Socratic Athenians and the writers of the Old Testament did not hold this view, and neither do I. My view is that there nothing more fundamental than the concepts in my mind, and no concept is more fundamental than good and bad. If you want to understand what I am talking about, you can read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance and/or The Philosophy of Hebrew Scripture.

Only humans can claim that good and bad exists. Only human arrogance can assume that; since we are the apex of intelligent life on earth, what we say goes. We have no proof of good, bad, or evil in nature, as any spiritual/philosophical writing of such things were created and interpreted by other humans. As humans, we believe what we want to believe. Whether the belief is commonly held or abstract, it is the human mind that comes up with such things. Sometimes, I wish I could speak to a higher power, god, deity, creator, entity, etc. and find out the truth. Unfortunately, every time I seek the word of God, I find the word of man instead. Mankind is flawed, we have a skewed perception of reality, a tendency toward self interest and a limited perceptual and conceptual range. This is why I act only on facts and observations. I cannot accept belief as a legitimate form of information. I mean no disrespect toward your faith/beliefs; I'm actually quite curious about what makes a spiritual person tick. Maybe one day, you and I can have an even deeper discussion about our world, its purpose and what's going to happen to it.

fschmidt wrote:
Your "we" means broad humanity since you come from a modernist mindset. I do not identify with humanity and I would never use "we" to associate myself with humanity. The most meaningful "we" is tribal, members of my tribe. My approach is to seek a tribe that can progress, and not to worry about humanity in general any more than I worry about cockroaches.

I had to chuckle at your "cockroaches" remark (pesky bipedal hominids...) Conventional morality urges me to want to help all humans; not just my "favorites". Reality and logic tells me that they are not worth caring about as they are all a threat t o my survival and prosperity. This is why I tend to isolate myself from others. I don't like the ideas of being injured, killed or imprisoned so I avoid hurting/killing other humans unless my survival is being threatened. On the other hand, I understand that - despite my tendency toward conventional morality and the value of human life - I cannot help/save everyone and that many people are not worth the effort. Your tribal approach has merit and has been proven time and time again. Unfortunately, I lack leadership ability and the patience to deal with that many people. I also have a problem following leadership that I deem incompetent or inferior. When your tribe establishes itself after the fall of society, you may catch a glimpse of a lone figure observing you from the distance. If you hold your fire, I promise you the same consideration. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: A New Voice...
PostPosted: 22 Feb 2015, 22:30 
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cerebral_barrier wrote:
Only humans can claim that good and bad exists. Only human arrogance can assume that; since we are the apex of intelligent life on earth, what we say goes. We have no proof of good, bad, or evil in nature, as any spiritual/philosophical writing of such things were created and interpreted by other humans. As humans, we believe what we want to believe. Whether the belief is commonly held or abstract, it is the human mind that comes up with such things. Sometimes, I wish I could speak to a higher power, god, deity, creator, entity, etc. and find out the truth. Unfortunately, every time I seek the word of God, I find the word of man instead. Mankind is flawed, we have a skewed perception of reality, a tendency toward self interest and a limited perceptual and conceptual range. This is why I act only on facts and observations. I cannot accept belief as a legitimate form of information. I mean no disrespect toward your faith/beliefs; I'm actually quite curious about what makes a spiritual person tick. Maybe one day, you and I can have an even deeper discussion about our world, its purpose and what's going to happen to it.

Everything you have written here reflects a lack of understanding of my perspective. This makes it very difficult to respond. If you really are curious to understand my view, then please read the books I suggested above. I will add that your worldview requires more faith than mine does, you just aren't aware of it. Your faith is in an external Truth independent of human thought. This is fundamentally a religious faith in the religion of Plato. I don't have this faith. The only thing that I actually have faith in is inductive reasoning.

Quote:
I had to chuckle at your "cockroaches" remark (pesky bipedal hominids...) Conventional morality urges me to want to help all humans; not just my "favorites". Reality and logic tells me that they are not worth caring about as they are all a threat t o my survival and prosperity. This is why I tend to isolate myself from others. I don't like the ideas of being injured, killed or imprisoned so I avoid hurting/killing other humans unless my survival is being threatened. On the other hand, I understand that - despite my tendency toward conventional morality and the value of human life - I cannot help/save everyone and that many people are not worth the effort. Your tribal approach has merit and has been proven time and time again. Unfortunately, I lack leadership ability and the patience to deal with that many people. I also have a problem following leadership that I deem incompetent or inferior. When your tribe establishes itself after the fall of society, you may catch a glimpse of a lone figure observing you from the distance. If you hold your fire, I promise you the same consideration. :wink:

We will probably both be dead by the fall. But more importantly, genes of human decency will become extinct mainstream culture. Such genes will only survive in other tribes/cultures.

Like you, I am neither a leader nor a follower. This is why I came up with the concept of the co-alpha male. Some tribes are less authoritarian and more co-alpha than others. I suggest you look for such a tribe/religion.

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 Post subject: Re: A New Voice...
PostPosted: 23 Feb 2015, 03:44 
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fschmidt wrote:
Everything you have written here reflects a lack of understanding of my perspective. This makes it very difficult to respond. If you really are curious to understand my view, then please read the books I suggested above. I will add that your worldview requires more faith than mine does, you just aren't aware of it. Your faith is in an external Truth independent of human thought. This is fundamentally a religious faith in the religion of Plato. I don't have this faith. The only thing that I actually have faith in is inductive reasoning.

Sorry about that, I meant no disrespect.

Believe it or not, I don't even have the level of faith you assume. My view is little more than the understanding that I don't "know" anything. To me, everything is an unprovable variable and due to each person having an independent point of view, "knowledge simply is not possible" in the way we think it is. I receive data from my senses and draw a conclusion based on my perception. I mentally record these conclusions, sort the data to recognize patterns; filing them under cumulative support for what I perceive, then I react to the patterns. Everyone else appears to do this as well but most do not question or attempt to confirm what they perceive. Many form beliefs based on their interpretation of what they perceive or follow the beliefs of others. I really can't do either of these and instead, question everything. So far, I've never met anyone who experiences life in this way. It's really very agonizing; waking up from one dream to another, then looking in the mirror and being surprised at what you see and then (based on the actions of others) not even being able to confirm your own self-awareness.

If time permits, I may take a peek at those books of yours. Hopefully I can some common ground.

fschmidt wrote:
We will probably both be dead by the fall. But more importantly, genes of human decency will become extinct mainstream culture. Such genes will only survive in other tribes/cultures.

Like you, I am neither a leader nor a follower. This is why I came up with the concept of the co-alpha male. Some tribes are less authoritarian and more co-alpha than others. I suggest you look for such a tribe/religion.

This is not likely. I find that I operate best alone or in very small groups (2-3 people max). I understand your concept of Co-Alphas but I find I am too overspecialized for something like that and I'd either be exploited/resented for my specialties or lost in the shuffle. A societal collapse/end of the world scenario won't likely change that. To be honest, the only time people seem to take a non-exploitative, non-hostile interested in what's really on my mind, is when I post on forums like this. Though, I'm not sure I understand why.

Sorry to get all nihilistic absurdist existential on you. Guess I'm getting tired.

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 Post subject: Re: A New Voice...
PostPosted: 23 Feb 2015, 05:04 
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cerebral_barrier wrote:
Believe it or not, I don't even have the level of faith you assume. My view is little more than the understanding that I don't "know" anything. To me, everything is an unprovable variable and due to each person having an independent point of view, "knowledge simply is not possible" in the way we think it is. I receive data from my senses and draw a conclusion based on my perception. I mentally record these conclusions, sort the data to recognize patterns; filing them under cumulative support for what I perceive, then I react to the patterns. Everyone else appears to do this as well but most do not question or attempt to confirm what they perceive. Many form beliefs based on their interpretation of what they perceive or follow the beliefs of others. I really can't do either of these and instead, question everything. So far, I've never met anyone who experiences life in this way. It's really very agonizing; waking up from one dream to another, then looking in the mirror and being surprised at what you see and then (based on the actions of others) not even being able to confirm your own self-awareness.

If time permits, I may take a peek at those books of yours. Hopefully I can some common ground.

You sound only a few steps away from understanding. You see the problems with conventional modern thinking but you do not see the solution. The solution is in the books I recommended. After reading these books, the Old Testament will make sense to you, not as a mythology but as a worldview not focused on Truth in the Platonic sense.

Quote:
This is not likely. I find that I operate best alone or in very small groups (2-3 people max). I understand your concept of Co-Alphas but I find I am too overspecialized for something like that and I'd either be exploited/resented for my specialties or lost in the shuffle. A societal collapse/end of the world scenario won't likely change that. To be honest, the only time people seem to take a non-exploitative, non-hostile interested in what's really on my mind, is when I post on forums like this. Though, I'm not sure I understand why.

Sorry to get all nihilistic absurdist existential on you. Guess I'm getting tired.

No one needs groups more than a specialist. Only a generalist can survive alone. If you want a very small group, you are welcome to join the Biblic Judiasm Online Bible Readings.

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