Jonathan's "Ask Jonathan about girls" thread...

jonathan · **Joined:** 08 Jan 2010, 09:51 **Posts:** 161

Inspired by something empty_caldera put on another thread:

empty_caldera wrote:

well ok so you don't like the whining on this board. Fair enough. How about instead give us some kinda positive encouragement that it's possible to get out of this thing. Tell us about your situation. How did you get out of your "love-shyness"? What tactics did you use to help yourself? Who have you ended up having relationships with, and how did you meet them? What were the relationships like? Did they satisfy you or did you feel you had to "settle"? An issue is that guys here don't have many models for success from people who have been in our situation and got out of it. Perhaps if we saw some "evidence" that it was possible to do so, some of the bitterness would dissipate and be replaced with hope and motivation to try things out. Bitching about the bitching on the boards, otoh, just feeds the negative feedback loop.

Well... Here it is. A bit about me: I'm 36, and for most of my time growing up, I cut myself out of relationships altogether. Due to one thing and another that happened in childhood and teenage years, I grew up solitary and alone, believing myself to be uniquely evil and nasty, in a way that no-one else could see. Without much in the way of self-esteem, girlfriends were almost non-existent. However, over the last few years, I've managed to learn to form relationships, and I'm delighted to say that I'm due to marry an amazing, wonderful woman next year.

I'm more than a bit self-conscious about starting this thread; I really don't feel like much of a role model, and I'm certainly not a expert; I don't have all the answers, I suspect I don't have many at all. However, if anyone wants to ask me anything, I will answer as truly as I can, based on my own experiences. Abusive responses are expected, and will be ignored. Ask away...

darwin · **Posted:** 30 May 2010, 12:27

you had no self esteem... but then you did? what happened?

jonathan · **Joined:** 08 Jan 2010, 09:51 **Posts:** 161

Didn't happen overnight, but I think it's one of those things that has to grow over time. A few things that helped were:

(i) being less self-obsessed, and realising that I wasn't the centre of the universe. For ages I was really consumed with how other people saw me, what they thought of me, whether I said the wrong thing, looked cool enough, etc etc. I think the time when you realise that people aren't as interested in you as you are, and that you don't have to be perfect all the time, came as a bit of relief. The ability to step back, laugh at yourself and forgive yourself was a big step.
(ii) becoming independent helped, as did figuring out what I wanted to do with my life, and finding a job that I enjoyed.
(iii) worrying less about what girls think, and learning to live with rejection. One girl not coming on a date with me doesn't diminish me; I'm just not right for her from the get-go. Next!
(iv) accepting my shortcomings, and playing to my strengths. I'm not a so-caller alpha male; i've got skinny forearms, a pot belly and a big arse, and I'm shit at DIY. But I'm interested in the world around me, I'm good at analysing things, and I like a challenge. Hang on to the good stuff.

Tenda Lucas · **Posted:** 30 May 2010, 16:09

Well, I s'pose...

How do you show interest in a woman in an effective way? In my experience, if you actually tell her you're interested, you're marked as desperate. The fact that honesty and directness is a turn-off is retarded, but I digress...

You have to show interest through actions, not words. Um, but what the hell are you supposed to do, exactly? I know about how slight touching is a way to show interest, but what are other effective ways to do so?

jonathan · **Joined:** 08 Jan 2010, 09:51 **Posts:** 161

Tenda Lucas wrote:

Well, I s'pose...

How do you show interest in a woman in an effective way? In my experience, if you actually tell her you're interested, you're marked as desperate. The fact that honesty and directness is a turn-off is retarded, but I digress...

You have to show interest through actions, not words. Um, but what the hell are you supposed to do, exactly? I know about how slight touching is a way to show interest, but what are other effective ways to do so?

I'm not sure that it has to be actions, y'know. What a lot of women I've come to know seem to like is being listened to (boy, do some of them like being listened to...) Women are also pretty good at picking up on the non-verbal stuff, and also tend to have a pretty good idea of when they're being chatted up by a man. I think the flat-out "I like you" isn't so much seen as desperate, as stating the (to her) blindingly obvious. If you're sitting, letting her talk, asking questions based on what she said, she'll know you're interested.

Other stuff that shows interest... eye contact (little and often rather than long periods of unbroken look-into-my-eyes staring, but you can build it up a little more if she reciprocates; smiling; opening your body posture towards her; back-handed compliments that make it clear you think she's attractive without actually saying it like a smart, pretty girl like you, or you must get a lot of guys asking you out; complimenting her on her personality rather than her appearance (although complimenting clothes is always a good one too - makes you sound you're not just after her tits & ass, and that you notice when she's made an effort to look nice; odd as it may sound, being a bit self-deprecating about yourself - "When I'm not beating the supermodels off with a shitty stick..." Always good for fishing for compliments, that one...

sandcat · **Posted:** 30 May 2010, 19:58

My situation is a bit similar to yours in that I have very negative feelings about myself, particularly about my appearance. Did any girl ever make fun of your skinny arms or your weight? Also, how and where did you meet the girls you dated?

monkey · **Posted:** 30 May 2010, 22:55

jonathan wrote:

Tenda Lucas wrote:

I'm not sure that it has to be actions, y'know. What a lot of women I've come to know seem to like is being listened to (boy, do some of them like being listened to...) Women are also pretty good at picking up on the non-verbal stuff, and also tend to have a pretty good idea of when they're being chatted up by a man. I think the flat-out "I like you" isn't so much seen as desperate, as stating the (to her) blindingly obvious. If you're sitting, letting her talk, asking questions based on what she said, she'll know you're interested. [I read Dale Carnegies 'how to win friends and influence people' one time and followed his prescription on how to win friends. I soon realised it was a recipe for being a doormat. If you listen and listen, people talk and talk and they NEVER GIVE YOU YOUR CHANCE TO SHINE.]

Other stuff that shows interest... eye contact (little and often rather than long periods of unbroken look-into-my-eyes staring, but you can build it up a little more if she reciprocates; smiling; opening your body posture towards her; back-handed compliments that make it clear you think she's attractive without actually saying it like a smart, pretty girl like you, or you must get a lot of guys asking you out; complimenting her on her personality rather than her appearance (although complimenting clothes is always a good one too - makes you sound you're not just after her tits & ass, and that you notice when she's made an effort to look nice; odd as it may sound, being a bit self-deprecating about yourself - "When I'm not beating the supermodels off with a shitty stick..." Always good for fishing for compliments, that one...[I've tried all this having learned this shtick from dating books but it's one of the fastest ways to be friendzoned.]

timid · **Joined:** 28 Jun 2009, 03:29 **Posts:** 130

Thanks for posting, Jonathan. And congratulations.

jonathan wrote:

Didn't happen overnight, but I think it's one of those things that has to grow over time.

Sure these things don't happen overnight, but I wonder if you think it happened "by itself" (e.g. you just grew older and wiser), or you did take some directed steps towards it?

jonathan wrote:

(iii) worrying less about what girls think, and learning to live with rejection. One girl not coming on a date with me doesn't diminish me; I'm just not right for her from the get-go. Next!

Oh, how I'd like to learn that!

I would admit I'm self-obsessed, but that comes as perfectly obvious because I don't have anyone else to be obsessed about.

Ionic · **Joined:** 06 Mar 2010, 21:33 **Posts:** 579

Interesting. But yeah, this line of thinking doesn't come overnight. You live most of your life so far, thinking a certain way and it can be very tough to unlearn it. How can the negative be "unlearned"?

jonathan · **Joined:** 08 Jan 2010, 09:51 **Posts:** 161

monkey wrote:

jonathan wrote:

Tenda Lucas wrote:

I'm not sure that it has to be actions, y'know. What a lot of women I've come to know seem to like is being listened to (boy, do some of them like being listened to...) Women are also pretty good at picking up on the non-verbal stuff, and also tend to have a pretty good idea of when they're being chatted up by a man. I think the flat-out "I like you" isn't so much seen as desperate, as stating the (to her) blindingly obvious. If you're sitting, letting her talk, asking questions based on what she said, she'll know you're interested. [I read Dale Carnegies 'how to win friends and influence people' one time and followed his prescription on how to win friends. I soon realised it was a recipe for being a doormat. If you listen and listen, people talk and talk and they NEVER GIVE YOU YOUR CHANCE TO SHINE.]

Other stuff that shows interest... eye contact (little and often rather than long periods of unbroken look-into-my-eyes staring, but you can build it up a littleI more if she reciprocates; smiling; opening your body posture towards her; back-handed compliments that make it clear you think she's attractive without actually saying it like a smart, pretty girl like you, or you must get a lot of guys asking you out; complimenting her on her personality rather than her appearance (although complimenting clothes is always a good one too - makes you sound you're not just after her tits & ass, and that you notice when she's made an effort to look nice; odd as it may sound, being a bit self-deprecating about yourself - "When I'm not beating the supermodels off with a shitty stick..." Always good for fishing for compliments, that one...[I've tried all this having learned this shtick from dating books but it's one of the fastest ways to be friendzoned.]

In both cases, I'd say that only comes from women who aren't interested. Move on!

jonathan · **Joined:** 08 Jan 2010, 09:51 **Posts:** 161

sandcat wrote:

My situation is a bit similar to yours in that I have very negative feelings about myself, particularly about my appearance. Did any girl ever make fun of your skinny arms or your weight? Also, how and where did you meet the girls you dated?

No, I don't recall women making fun of that stuff. To be honest, they didn't need to - I carried those negative perceptions around with me. I think the other thing to realise is that EVERYONE is insecure about their bodies. Everyone.

As for where to meet people, one girlfriend came through work, one was a girl I met at a friend's wedding, and my current girlfriend I met on a dating site. I'd recommend the Internet - you know that people are there because they want to meet people. Having said that, it's fraught with disappointment. But it only has to work once...

jonathan · **Joined:** 08 Jan 2010, 09:51 **Posts:** 161

timid wrote:

Thanks for posting, Jonathan. And congratulations.

Thanks, man.

timid wrote:

Sure these things don't happen overnight, but I wonder if you think it happened "by itself" (e.g. you just grew older and wiser), or you did take some directed steps towards it?

I think there has to be directed steps. I just realised that I had to be on my own side, and in my own corner; you have to think you're worth something. Without that, everything else is waste of time.

timid wrote:

Oh, how I'd like to learn that!

I would admit I'm self-obsessed, but that comes as perfectly obvious because I don't have anyone else to be obsessed about.

A rejection is just one girl's opinion of you. If you know you have good inside you, if you care about other people and are interested in them, someone will see it. Don't let it crush you - don't give someone else that power over you. Pick yourself up and move on.

jonathan · **Joined:** 08 Jan 2010, 09:51 **Posts:** 161

Stillwell80 wrote:

Interesting. But yeah, this line of thinking doesn't come overnight. You live most of your life so far, thinking a certain way and it can be very tough to unlearn it. How can the negative be "unlearned"?

Yes, it is tough - I'm not sure I'm completely out of it even now. I think if you can learn to recognise patterns of thinking, when you're beating yourself up over nothing, you can begin to think differently. Like I said above, you have to be on your own side.

monkey · **Posted:** 31 May 2010, 11:20

jonathan wrote:

In both cases, I'd say that only comes from women who aren't interested. Move on!

Not so! If she was interested, she becomes uninterested from your 'weak' behaviour.

Singlegirl once stated she agrees with the statements made by this article, although with the other side of her face, she claims to look for 'shy, polite, honest men with integrity'.

So you must be 'Romantic' but not 'clingy'
Shy but not insecure
Bring gifts but don't come on too strong
Treat her 'special' but don't put her on a pedestal
Be a 'helper' but not to wimin with 'neuroses' or 'problems' (that's all of them then)

In essence, she will summarily decide in her own fluid subjectivity when you've crossed the line.

It's nice, you're finally getting some attention and even getting Married, but you have to ask surely, why were you ignored and dismissed in your youth when you had so much to offer?

Ethnocide · **Posted:** 31 May 2010, 22:50

I don't remember if you had a picture or not... but basically.... if you are an attractive looking dude.... none of your advice applies to any of the ugly dudes here. Chicks don't treat ugly dudes and good looking dudes the same.

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